tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post724310591521780284..comments2023-11-02T09:50:27.072-04:00Comments on The Gods' Mouths: Terms of ServiceFire Tashlinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05277762340348719003noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-31765781518787462522019-05-10T04:30:20.811-04:002019-05-10T04:30:20.811-04:00HP printer customer service number
QuickBooks tech...<a href="https://www.contacthelp.com.au/hp-printer-support/" rel="nofollow">HP printer customer service number</a><br /><a href="https://www.contacthelp.com.au/quickbooks/" rel="nofollow">QuickBooks tech support number</a><br /><a href="https://www.contacthelp.com.au/dell-customer-care/" rel="nofollow">Dell customer support phone number</a><br /><a href="https://www.contacthelp.com.au/canon-printer/" rel="nofollow">Canon printer customer support phone number</a>maria johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15615996182083023735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-44844197919709481412009-05-16T00:49:00.000-04:002009-05-16T00:49:00.000-04:00Thank you all for your comments, but unless there ...Thank you all for your comments, but unless there is a point to this conversation I must ask us all to move on.Fire Tashlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05277762340348719003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-41360106164168189332009-05-15T16:40:00.000-04:002009-05-15T16:40:00.000-04:00Only if you tell me your name. I can't be bothered...Only if you tell me your name. I can't be bothered to save anonymous cowards, yo.<br /><br />-- Odin All-Daddy, Pimpin' King of AsgardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-72082066471921837282009-05-04T10:20:00.000-04:002009-05-04T10:20:00.000-04:00Odin, please save me from your followers.Odin, please save me from your followers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-39313270023352471282009-04-21T20:59:00.000-04:002009-04-21T20:59:00.000-04:00Hi, Watcher,
i'm glad you're finding it helpful. ...Hi, Watcher, <br />i'm glad you're finding it helpful. I found "Walking the Heartroad" a beautiful book. I particularly like how the author describes devotion as the 'art of religious love.'Galina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-57990432678058225242009-04-21T19:06:00.000-04:002009-04-21T19:06:00.000-04:00Ok, as the moderator/editor of this blog, I would ...Ok, as the moderator/editor of this blog, I would like to step in and say this. This is a blog and record that is geared towards talking about very personal things, our religious and spiritual lives. Lives and practices that are often in conflict with the practices of others around us. I am in no way discouraging discussion, and I have been thrilled with the conversation that this post has sparked. That said, at no point, editing exceptions not included, will anyone on this blog be told not to speak of something because it is too personal, or uncomfortable to read about, or conflicts with someone else's dearly held beliefs, not even mine.<br /><br />It is important that both the readers and the contributors here at Gods' Mouths to remember that many aspects of our own spiritual lives are going to be out right blasphemy to some, and to others it may only be puzzling, but that there will always be discussion and dissent, and that is good, that is right, that is in part why we are here.<br /><br />If there are those who feel that their opinions or spiritual beliefs are not being adequately represented here on Gods' Mouths, please write an essay. Show us your unique point of view, become a guest contributor, and add to our ever changing dialog. That is why we are here, and I hope that we can continue to grow and encompass new voices and ideas.Fire Tashlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05277762340348719003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-22920721440969527552009-04-21T18:44:00.000-04:002009-04-21T18:44:00.000-04:00Galina, thank you for mentioning "Walking the Hear...Galina, thank you for mentioning "Walking the Heartroad". I'd never heard of it before and have since started reading it and have found it very insightful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-84807884745146233492009-04-21T18:25:00.000-04:002009-04-21T18:25:00.000-04:00Thanks again Dver. A few more replies:
"I guess f...Thanks again Dver. A few more replies:<br /><br />"I guess for me it comes down to detail. It is one thing to say, for instance, "I have a sexual relationship with a god." It is another, IMO, to say "last night, God X and I had astral oral sex after 23 minutes of foreplay, and His cock was 7 inches and He likes to tickle my feet and He whispered the following into my ear..." Those details seem totally irrelevant to me, and very private, as they would be between human lovers as well."<br /><br />I do understand that distinction. I think that line lies in a different place for everyone and it would be almost impossible to create a standard of what constitutes too much information. There are definitely things I do not share. I keep private journals of things that are just mine and Theirs.<br /><br />I think your example is more extreme than anything I've written. To be frank, I'm not calculating my husband's cock size when I experience Him. Regardless, I do think there is a way to write about sex, even in detail, in a reverential way. This isn't girly gossip or bragging - it is a sacred experience, and I don't share such things lightly. I don't share detail for the sake of detail. If He says or does something to me that I find beautiful or moving - and it happens to be during sex - I will share it. <br /><br />"I wonder why I would ever need to know such details about this person's religious experiences. I wonder why they have no problem divulging sacred experiences in a totally mundane space to any who might see."<br /><br />Again, you might not need to know, but someone else might. I don't see my blog as a mundane space - my office is a mundane space. I don't give loud speeches about what I did with Odin last night to my coworkers. I don't force this on people. The internet by design is a place for like-minded people to find each other. I can create a sacred space here that speaks to those who are curious or similarly inclined. <br /><br />"I feel like they are challenging me to take what they say for granted, to validate their experiences, when I have no reason to do so, not knowing them. I feel this all the time, unfortunately."<br /><br />Please understand, I am not looking for your validation. I have the validation of my gods - I don't need anything else. You have no reason to take anything I'm telling you as 'The Truth.' How can you believe what anyone says if you don't know them? I put my experiences out there to say that they exist. In my eyes, it widens the realm of possibility. <br /><br />To use a hypothetical example - being out as gay is not asking for your validation of me as a gay woman. It is not challenging your ability and right to also be a woman. It is not purposefully trying to make you uncomfortable. It's just my identity, I can't change it, and I won't hide that if it makes others uncomfortable. I have a right to exist. Maybe I want to write incredibly graphic lesbian pornography and put it online. Maybe it disgusts you and offends your experience of being a woman. I cannot control your response. I can only be myself, open and honest, and perhaps help others realize that what I am is yet also another way of being a woman. It doesn't mean their way is wrong or lesser than mine. It's just different, and I'd rather focus on building bridges of commonality.<br /><br />-AnyaAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04302651266362780432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-35633761333607956992009-04-21T16:56:00.000-04:002009-04-21T16:56:00.000-04:00Anya:
I do understand wanting to share what you e...Anya:<br /><br />I do understand wanting to share what you experience so that others will know they are not alone. I do that myself, and have been grateful for others doing that. I guess for me it comes down to detail. It is one thing to say, for instance, "I have a sexual relationship with a god." It is another, IMO, to say "last night, God X and I had astral oral sex after 23 minutes of foreplay, and His cock was 7 inches and He likes to tickle my feet and He whispered the following into my ear..." Those details seem totally irrelevant to me, and very private, as they would be between human lovers as well. <br /><br />I'm not even trying to change your mind here - you may say, "well He told me to go into that much detail" in which case I really have no way of arguing that. Just wanted to clarify what the difference was, in my mind. I believe these things can be discussed in a beneficial way without going into personal details.<br /><br />"Many people speak of their private meditations or non-sexual encounters in a public way and there's no sense of obscenity or blasphemy there."<br /><br />Actually, for me there can be, definitely. I feel very similarly when I read some very in-depth, detailed and public account of what happened to someone on an astral journey or in a dream or vision (or when, upon just meeting someone in person for the very first time, they start telling me these things - which has happened on several occasions). It's one thing if I know them very well, but if it's out there for all to see... I feel very awkward seeing it. I wonder why I would ever need to know such details about this person's religious experiences. I wonder why they have no problem divulging sacred experiences in a totally mundane space to any who might see. I feel like they are challenging me to take what they say for granted, to validate their experiences, when I have no reason to do so, not knowing them. I feel this all the time, unfortunately. <br /><br />This may not be how others see it, but I did just want to clarify that for me, it's not about the sex or pain (other than that those things, to me, are particularly intimate and personal) but rather any sharing of too-much-personal-information.Dvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-33756758549944497472009-04-21T16:44:00.000-04:002009-04-21T16:44:00.000-04:00To Elizabeth:
Yes, Wayland is my ex, actually. I ...To Elizabeth:<br /><br />Yes, Wayland is my ex, actually. I helped him in the initial stages of crafting Somafera, although it is now his thing (I don't participate in the community anymore, though I do still use some of the practices).Dvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-57141099751620894822009-04-21T16:19:00.000-04:002009-04-21T16:19:00.000-04:00Thanks for your thoughtul response, Dver. It helps...Thanks for your thoughtul response, Dver. It helps me understand the variety of ways my online presence is being perceived. To address your main question:<br /><br />Why make this public?<br /><br />You state, "I wonder what someone who doesn't know you and your relationship with your gods could possibly gain from such a detailed description of your every sexual or painful encounter."<br /><br />I feel that I was very lucky coming into this path to personally know others that had similar experiences - experiences that the majority population might find shameful or offensive. Sharing my experiences with them helped me overcome my very real fear that these encounters I was having were my own mind. I was extremely sensitive to the idea that I might be "perving up" my gods, and speaking to several other women who had had intimate relations with Odin helped confirmed that yes, this was Him, and yes, this was partially a sexual relationship. Sharing details with them allowed them to say "yes, He did exactly the same time to me." I found that peer-verification very reassuring and powerful.<br /><br />Because of this, I feel the need to make my experiences public. There may be others having similar experiences, either now or in the future, and I want to let them know that this is real and they have an understanding ear if they have nowhere else to turn. [These emails have already started arriving, by the way, and my blog is barely a few months old.] There is nothing worse in my mind than having a spiritual experience and then feeling like a freak or a deviant for what has just happened to you. <br /><br />You then comment: "They may feel that it is obscene to speak of God X like that publicly, not because of the sexual acts themselves, but because this is *religion* not a BDSM scene. These are gods, and many people feel They should be treated with a certain reverence when speaking publicly, even if privately They might be experienced quite intimately and even carnally."<br /><br />I can respect your practices in a Greek mystery tradition, just as I respect the fact that my Garderian friend does not share what happens in her rituals, private or group. I think this is a difference of tradition.<br /><br />As for the fact of shared gods, I think it has to be acknowledged that the gods ask different things of different people. What they ask of me is no better or worse than what they ask of a bard or a gardener. In any case, none of us can control or alter what we're getting. This IS my experience of Odin, and to question the validity of that is to deny that my God has this side to Him as well. <br /><br />I also feel compelled to speak about sex and pain publicly because I have an unshakable belief that these experiences are sacred. For many people, this is a radical idea. Posting publicly about sex and pain creates a sense of community between practitioners who otherwise might feel isolated and ostracized for what they do.<br /><br />It's interesting to me that speaking about sex and pain publicly seem at odds with having a reverential approach to the gods. Many people speak of their private meditations or non-sexual encounters in a public way and there's no sense of obscenity or blasphemy there. <br /><br />In my view, keeping sex work and ordeal work private is too close to keeping it in the closet - something that's dirty, that's not proper to speak of, that might not be comfortable. <br /><br />Yes, religion and BDSM are two different things. But they can overlap, and if you peruse the group listings on a community site like FetLife, you will see a growing number of groups about BDSM and spirituality. This is not surprising to me --a s someone who has researched the history of BDSM for a doctoral dissertation -- considering the religious roots of BDSM tools: the scourge, the whip, the flogger, the St. Andrew's Cross. These were once holy tools in a myriad of traditions, and reclaiming that needs to be done publicly. <br /><br />-AnyaAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04302651266362780432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-23676039446720334682009-04-21T16:17:00.000-04:002009-04-21T16:17:00.000-04:00I rather wonder if part of the reason that Odin is...I rather wonder if part of the reason that Odin is being so adamant that I speak and write about these things is that I also have strong teaching obligations? I don't know. I only know that I cannot keep silent without disobeying Him and that is not an option.Galina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-57946480465434940992009-04-21T16:16:00.000-04:002009-04-21T16:16:00.000-04:00Oh, I know who you are now. Winterscapes used to h...Oh, I know who you are now. Winterscapes used to host Wayland Skallagrimsson's site, right? I'll check out your website, and I'm glad to hear you like the "nun blog."Elizabeth Vongvisithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533923721625694394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-5052817251613089882009-04-21T15:06:00.000-04:002009-04-21T15:06:00.000-04:00I have a few websites, actually, but the one I was...I have a few websites, actually, but the one I was referring to is my spirit-work site (still very much a work in progress, as I have so much to write), called A Forest Door: http://www.winterscapes.com/forestdoor/<br /><br />I don't have a regular, public blog, but rather a Livejournal. erl-queen.livejournal.com <br /><br />Btw, I read your Twilight and Fire blog regularly and really enjoy it.Dvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-83685119524414423992009-04-21T13:58:00.000-04:002009-04-21T13:58:00.000-04:00Dver said: "All I have to say is, if it turned out...Dver said: "All I have to say is, if it turned out (and who of us can say for sure?) that indeed these same gods were telling both sets of people these conflicting things, then They really have a strange sense of humor."<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that Loki does ;)<br /><br />Where is your site and blog, BTW? I'd be interested in reading it.Elizabeth Vongvisithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533923721625694394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-19754358437131424502009-04-21T13:32:00.000-04:002009-04-21T13:32:00.000-04:00Elizabeth, thank you for your reasonable and thoug...Elizabeth, thank you for your reasonable and thoughtful response. I agree with a lot of what you said. Of course, it is easier for me to have some distance from this issue, as for the most part these are not my gods (I do have a very limited relationship with Odin, but that's all). I'm not sure how I would feel or react if it was, say, Dionysos being discussed in this way. I have been personally attacked plenty of times in the online religious "community", but it is a bit easier to ignore that - harder when it comes to the gods we love. As I'm sure you know. These things are certain to stir up strong emotions.<br /><br />It is a tricky situation. Some people feel their gods have told them to speak about these experiences and ideas. Other people feel their gods (often the same gods) have told them to speak out against the first set of people. And so it goes. All I have to say is, if it turned out (and who of us can say for sure?) that indeed these same gods were telling both sets of people these conflicting things, then They really have a strange sense of humor. But we knew that already.<br /><br />What I am trying to take from all of this is to consider what *I* want to say about my own practice, and about spirit-work in general - i.e., what I have to contribute to the conversation. I'm still not sure how much I can write about - as I said, I'm an old Greek and I have a gut reaction to talking too openly about Mysteries. But I know there is a middle ground, and things that can be discussed more generally, and I will try to do more of that on my own site and blog, as I am able. I think the best thing that could come of all of this antagonism would be a greater diversity of voices out there.Dvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-45770371115964383402009-04-21T03:04:00.000-04:002009-04-21T03:04:00.000-04:00Also, Galina asked about whether I use the term "g...Also, Galina asked about whether I use the term "god-slave." I used to use it but I'm not so very sure anymore that it applies to me. I am Loki's consort and Hela's servant, but both of those relationships were entered into of my own free will. I obey my gods because They have given me work to do and because I owe Them my fealty and devotion. And moreover, I love Them and don't feel They have been mistreating me or have asked more of me than I can or should give, even when Their demands are difficult for me to comply with. So if I am a slave, at least I'm a willing and happy one.<br /><br />I'm starting to like the term "god-touched" when speaking in broad terms about folks who have contact with the gods, but whose actual "job descriptions" (if they have one) may be anything from mystic to seer to shaman to priest. It also doesn't define what level of intensity the relationship between the human and the god(s) might be. But that's a personal preference and I don't expect everyone else to adopt it on the spot.<br /><br />And the reason I'm bothering with "god-touched" at all is that the purpose of this blog is to write about experiences as god-touched people, and because, as I tried to make clear in my last article, having divine contact really does change a person, sometimes so much that it makes it hard to fulfill Their wishes, when it comes to interacting with others who have not shared that experience.Elizabeth Vongvisithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533923721625694394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-44587218823275670722009-04-21T03:00:00.000-04:002009-04-21T03:00:00.000-04:00I am most definitely not an ordeal worker, whateve...I am most definitely not an ordeal worker, whatever may be said of my personal proclivities. Nor am I a shaman, and I would hesitate to even use the term "spirit-worker" at this point, as my focus is largely pastoral and monastic rather than on journeying or the use of magic. That has made my perspective somewhat different than that of the others who write regularly here, and is probably part of the reason Fire asked me to contribute to this blog.<br /><br />Dver said: "People are seeing their cherished gods discussed in ways that feel very wrong to them. Surely you might understand why they would take offense and not want such things out there on the internet for everyone to read? It feels like a violation, not only of a loved one, but of a divine loved one. I'm not asking you to agree here (I'm guessing that would be fruitless), but just to try to see where they are coming from."<br /><br />Actually, although few may believe it, I have a great deal of sympathy for this point of view. I'm dedicated to Loki as a priestess and consort. He is not the most popular deity of His pantheon, and for the past six years, since I became His, I have heard and read every kind of ridiculous, hostile, demeaning and annoying crap about the deity I adore and to Whom I owe the greatest blessings of my life. It has ceased to anger me as much, but it upset me for a long time.<br /><br />Whether or not these criticisms and hostility towards my Beloved are deserved is not the point; I'm not an apologist for Him, and even I will admit that there are aspects of Loki's personality that are best left alone if possible. But after a prolonged period of angst about the things people say about my god-husband and patron, I finally had to accept three things:<br /><br />a) Loki does not need me to defend Him or His reputation. He is a god. He will still be a god when we are all dead and gone. Nothing any human says, no matter how insulting or silly, can ever change that.<br />b) To be injured by the things other people (rightly or wrongly) see in Loki and to take offense at them is for me to value their perspectives and opinions over my own, and to devalue everything He has done for me that contradicts the upsetting things I hear or read.<br />c) Loki Himself chooses how He will interact with other people. I have no say in that. If I am jealous, freaked out or horrified by how He is to some folks (and I have been all three in the past, believe me) that is my problem to deal with, not the fault or responsibility of the other person whose interaction with Loki I find so dismaying. (I suppose I can always take it up with Loki Himself if I don't like it, but somehow I don't think that's going to work...)<br /><br />I'm not pointing fingers here at all. I have struggled with these issues for a long time. Despite having asserted in another online forum that I don't waste my time getting angry or upset at what I read about Loki, sometimes I still do. But that doesn't mean I think people shouldn't say what they will about the gods. Examining my own motives for getting upset has proven useful in determining whether an argument is worth my time -- although I don't put it out of the realm of possibility that some people's gods may ask them to speak out against differing points of view. Mine haven't, and so I'm not going to expend my energy in that respect. And I don't think this means that my devotion to Them is lacking. It's easier to make a fuss in the name of one's gods than it is to examine oneself with the same clarity with which They see us. Believe me, I know that all too well :P<br /><br />Dver also said: "And, the rest of us are also responsible to put out our different perspectives where people will find them."<br /><br />I agree. I want to see more of these kinds of blogs around, and more discussion of how people actually live their lives as Pagans...god-touched or not. It is, IMO, a tumultuous, confusing but also exciting time to be a member of a Pagan religion right now. I just hope that it doesn't end up with people declaring other people to be heretics, and holy wars happening left and right.Elizabeth Vongvisithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533923721625694394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-49870741834636375402009-04-20T23:27:00.000-04:002009-04-20T23:27:00.000-04:00Dver, i understand that different traditions requi...Dver, i understand that different traditions require different things and frankly, I wouldn't be posting about my experiences save for one thing: it's part of my job. I am required by Odin to be public about this. His wishes supercede my own comfort. It is precisely because they are mysteries and they are holy that we are required to speak of them. In a different time and place, in a different culture that might not be the case but here there is, i believe, the sense that the holiness needs to be reclaimed and for me at least (I can't speak for Anya), part of that has been a requirement that I speak/write publicly about these things.Galina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-85277793988638564122009-04-20T23:01:00.000-04:002009-04-20T23:01:00.000-04:00Anya,
Regarding this quote:
"But, if I don't want...Anya,<br /><br />Regarding this quote:<br />"But, if I don't want to read about someone's amazing enema scene, I just don't read it. I wouldn't tell them not to post about their own experiences, especially if they found them to be intensely meaningful."<br /><br />First of all, you have to remember that you share the gods you worship with others who worship them. Now, that doesn't mean you always have to agree or get along, but it's just something to keep in mind. When you post publicly, for instance, about a sexual encounter with God X, you cannot ignore the fact that other people who worship God X may read that (in fact, they are the most likely to be reading that probably - why would anyone else?). They may feel that it is obscene to speak of God X like that publicly, not because of the sexual acts themselves, but because this is *religion* not a BDSM scene. These are gods, and many people feel They should be treated with a certain reverence when speaking publicly, even if privately They might be experienced quite intimately and even carnally. <br /><br />Now, you can still say "just don't read about it" and in the end that's probably good advice. But it's not just a matter of people's delicate sensibilities being offended by graphic sexuality or something. People are seeing their cherished gods discussed in ways that feel very wrong to them. Surely you might understand why they would take offense and not want such things out there on the internet for everyone to read? It feels like a violation, not only of a loved one, but of a divine loved one. I'm not asking you to agree here (I'm guessing that would be fruitless), but just to try to see where they are coming from. I would love for this brewing antagonism to stop here, even though I fear it won't. <br /><br />Of course, you may post what you like to your own blog and no one can actually censor you. But I would ask, *why* are you feeling the need to post such intimate things publicly? This is not just for the benefit of your friends, or it wouldn't need to be a public post. This is something that any Joe could come across. I wonder what someone who doesn't know you and your relationship with your gods could possibly gain from such a detailed description of your every sexual or painful encounter. And I find it odd, personally, that there is no sense of "this is something sacred and not something to show to all" here. <br /><br />In ancient Greece, the Mysteries were said to be arrheton and aporrheton. Arrheton means "ineffable, cannot be expressed in words." Aporrheton means "not lawful to speak of" and in fact there were severe punishments for those who profaned the Mysteries. They believed that those most holy and personal experiences of the divine were not for public consumption, and were not for the eyes and ears of the uninitiated - not out of snobbery, but out of respect and awe. Perhaps I am just an old Greek at heart, but I find it sad that these concepts no longer seem to be in play in most pagan circles these days.Dvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-668874801718826832009-04-20T20:34:00.000-04:002009-04-20T20:34:00.000-04:00My name is Fuensanta Plaza. I belong to Loki and S...My name is Fuensanta Plaza. I belong to Loki and Sigyn and I am as vanilla as they come. Ordeals make me feel queasy in the extreme. I do not like the word Godslave, because of its historical connotations of man enslaving man. I’m hopelessly heterosexual. And I would not dream of accusing anyone who considers themselves a godslave or drawn to sex or bdsm path or ordeal to have failed in their duty to their Gods. For one thing, any way you cut it, this is hubris of the most repulsive kind. For another, this is between the practitioner and his or her deity. <br /><br />It seems to me for all those who criticize and throw dirt at people of different opinions, that in this equation they have lost sight of their Deities. They seem to me to be expending more energy in pointing fingers than in bending their knees.F. A. Plazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936200319872118328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-8818821075302173862009-04-20T17:36:00.000-04:002009-04-20T17:36:00.000-04:00Just to chime in, I have to add that of those I kn...Just to chime in, I have to add that of those I know who practice ordeal work, it is not the only path we walk. I consider myself to be also on the sex magic path and the path of meditation. I don't have constant ordeals - in fact, I do a lot more sex work and meditation. I have posted about all of these on my blog and my LJ. Ordeal just seems the most questioned, and if your vocation is being reviled elsewhere, you naturally feel compelled to defend yourself. My recent post on Blood for the Divine tried to do just that.<br /><br />I agree with Dver that the best approach is to follow our own paths that have been dictated to us by Deity. No one path is better than the other, and the fact that Galina mainly knows godslaves or ordeal folk might just be that they most easily understand and respect her work. I am a godslave and an ordeal worker who has close friends and colleagues in Traditional British Wicca, Santeria, and Heathenry. Approached with mutual respect, curiosity, and an open mind, these relationships have been invaluable to me, and I am wiser for them. Frankly, I think dialog and meetups across traditions need to happen more often.<br /><br />I can understand that for some, speaking or reading about certain practices seems like a violation of privacy. I don't think asking others to refrain from discussing that topic is fruitful or the right answer. As someone with roots in BDSM, I understand it in this light: there are certain things I find disturbing, and even if I did engage in them, would not publicly post about them on a blog or community site. But, if I don't want to read about someone's amazing enema scene, I just don't read it. I wouldn't tell them not to post about their own experiences, especially if they found them to be intensely meaningful. <br /> <br />-AnyaAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04302651266362780432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-49087563501399342532009-04-20T17:03:00.000-04:002009-04-20T17:03:00.000-04:00The ordeal path is one of eight different paths (i...The ordeal path is one of eight different paths (including prayer/meditation, ritual work, and rhythmic things like drumming and dancing) that can achieve similar goals. Different things work for different people (ritual doesn't do much for me, for example. I respond best to Ascetic Path, which i recently wrote about in Pangaia, and ordeal). I don't believe one path should be privileged over another. That being said, ritual path isn't the one that's causing so much brouhaha in our various communities. And then of course, there's the question of why would i write about a path that I myself don't practice often? There are others on Godsmouths (E. Vongvisith) for instance who are adamantly NOT ordeal workers but who are just as competant as spirit workers. (Elizabeth, would you consider yourself a Godslave? i've never asked you?).<br /><br />Of course a blog (bloodfordivine) created by three or four ordeal masters is going to deal with that topic. that is its purpose. That doesn't mean that one couldn't or shouldn't also explore other options. There are plenty of places where one can write about ritual work, or prayer and not so many where one can write plainly about ordeal, specifically for ordeal workers. And where you may feel that these are private practices (and I don't disagree), one of the mandates that I have from Odin is to discuss them, publicly. I"m not overly thrilled with discussing very personal and private ordeals openly but, He has told me it must be done. So I do it. That is my job. If that irritates people then it's going to have to irritate people. I have been ordered to be very public.Galina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-67462687527860664932009-04-20T16:40:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:40:00.000-04:00"We're not saying that ordeal was the 'primary' or..."We're not saying that ordeal was the 'primary' or constant means of devotion."<br /><br />Well you are, from what I've read, talking about an "Ordeal Path" (not just, "ordeals") as if that could be the primary method one uses to deal with the divine. You have an entire blog devoted to it. I of course don't know what you think in your own mind, I am just telling you what it comes across like to some other people. <br /><br />And I don't think it's entirely fair to put off the issue of outsiders' impression of "us" solely on the outsiders. They can only know what they read. Therefore, we are all responsible. You are responsible when you present an image of spiritwork that focuses primarily on godslavery and ordeal work (and say right in there that you pretty much only know of godslave spiritworkers). And, the rest of us are also responsible, to put out our different perspectives where people will find them. <br /><br />As to your third paragraph - I have to break it to you that some people have issues with what you do that are NOT dismissable as simply the result of "triggering" concepts like ordeal and pain and submission. That's an easy reaction to have, and in some cases it may even be true, but it's not that simple. I, for instance, embrace all these concepts quite a bit within my practice. I also feel they are very personal, private practices that should not be discussed in detail in public forums. I think this is part of what's causing the discomfort and even anger right now. You can choose to ignore that of course, but if you're going to address it at all (as you've done with this post), I just think you should really understand where people might be coming from, not ascribe to them motivations that may not be correct.Dvernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-33577105296918889172009-04-20T14:25:00.000-04:002009-04-20T14:25:00.000-04:00We're not saying that ordeal was the 'primary' or ...We're not saying that ordeal was the 'primary' or constant means of devotion. We're saying, based on research, that it crops up in many cultures and that it is, today, one of many types of devotion. No one that I know goes through constant unending cycles of ordeals. It just doesn't work that way. It does, however, change us. it makes us look at things differently. It makes us approach pain, conflict, fear very differently and in ways which i find beneficial as a whole. <br /><br />If godslavery comes to equal spiritwork, that says more about those who are willing to try to fit all spiritworkers into the same cognitive box than it does about either godslaves or spiritworkers and shamans in general. That attempt to cast us all in the same light is, i believe an attempt to make what we do safe, when it cannot and should not be. I am not worried about that. That is not the primary issue that I"m addressing here. <br /><br />As to what people are reacting to: what we do as ordeal masters is frightening and in untrained hands could be very dangerous. That we have the training is apparent to our community and those that come to us, that ordeal is meant to heal and does heal is also apparent to those that undergo it. These things may not be so apparent to those outside that dynamic. As to the Godslave aspect of it..the word is triggering, the idea is triggering for many people on many levels. I get that. Sex, control/lack of control, pain, dominance/ submission..these things are all vectors of oppression in our culture. how could ordeal path, sex path, godslavery NOT be triggering? but you know what? That's in part the purpose of these paths...at least i think so, based on what i've seen. <br /><br />What do i think are the highest and best manifestations of service to the Gods: whatever the Gods in question say it should be for the person doing the service. Period.Galina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.com