tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post8815522270212984607..comments2023-11-02T09:50:27.072-04:00Comments on The Gods' Mouths: Money Makes the World Go Round...Fire Tashlinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05277762340348719003noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-73626773303505314402009-04-07T15:44:00.000-04:002009-04-07T15:44:00.000-04:00Gucci Heathen..i love that. But seriously, these t...Gucci Heathen..i love that. But seriously, these things are tools: our make up, clothing, carriage...they are professional tools and as such, we need to respect them. there's nothing at all wrong with that! I'm really glad you enjoyed the article. Be well. GkGalina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-12038052922422017322009-04-07T06:11:00.000-04:002009-04-07T06:11:00.000-04:00A bit belated, but I just found the link to your b...A bit belated, but I just found the link to your blog, and reading this: <I>"What i am against, is someone feeling that they have to do that in order to be a "real" Pagan. Why is the concept of wealth and professional status so ignored and undervalued in our communities? (I mean, take the concept of Pagan Standard Time. It's pure BS. Be on time. period. otherwise you're wasting my time. it's common courtesy and anyone who's worked in a professional environment hopefully knows that. Yet something this fundamental escapes the communities--but that is a rant for another day!"</I><BR/><BR/>... I just have to say that I love you. This. So much. I love my business-casual clothes. I love the impression it gives, and I love how a silver Hammer or Valknut look with it. I worked hard for my degree and while yes, that sort of professional world has a lot of unwritten rules, I love that, too. Even my casual clothes, while always bought in outlets or on sale, still give off an impression of mainsteam fashion and status. I don't spend that much on clothes, all in all, but I pick what I wear damn well. It doesn't make me any less of a Heathen or Pagan. It just means that I'm a bit of a Gucci Heathen.Annikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052655042052435855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-51072927000059618192009-02-19T17:30:00.000-05:002009-02-19T17:30:00.000-05:00Hi, Lysana, I hadn't even considered the Eastern i...Hi, Lysana, <BR/>I hadn't even considered the Eastern influence! I think you may be on to something there. <BR/><BR/>I know what you mean about the Celtic myths. I'm Heathen and gold runs through the norse myths as a powerful symbol, both for good and ill. Success, including financial success may have traditionally carried obligation but certainly it didn't carry any onus. <BR/><BR/>The Scandinavian kings were sometimes referred to as 'Gold Haters" but that wasn't due to any belief that money was bad, but rather due to the fact that they had the cultural obligation to bestow wealth and gifts upon those in service to them. <BR/><BR/>really good point about Eastern religions....<BR/>GalinaGalina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-14565892400247013072009-02-19T14:32:00.000-05:002009-02-19T14:32:00.000-05:00I wouldn't lay as much of the blame at the foot of...I wouldn't lay as much of the blame at the foot of lingering Christian sentiment toward poverty as you do, but I also see where Eastern traditions have had their influence in Western paganism. They took the spirit-body split and ran with it to a place that Western traditions wouldn't recognize without their binoculars. Throw in how the hippies idolized Eastern traditions, especially Buddhism and its insistence that all material wealth is a hindrance to enlightenment, and we as a social movement are effectively cursed with a set of conflicting impulses. The gods of old in Europe weren't big on poverty on the average. I'm in an Irish-focused Celtic tradition, and the number of times their myths speak of beautiful people draped in fine cloth and adorned with shining gems says a lot about their opinion of wealth.Lysanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624205720202491058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-15326077498107324312009-02-18T22:52:00.000-05:002009-02-18T22:52:00.000-05:00To continue for a moment, i also think that by emb...To continue for a moment, i also think that by embracing this downwardly mobile Weltanschauung, it allows one to take no responsibility for one's lack of success. It's like the old Aesop fable of the fox and the grapes, "well, i didn't want them anyway!" If you want nothing, you don't have to work for anything, you don't have to struggle to realize your dreams, and you don't have to embrace the discipline of mindful responsibility. I think this entire attitude, particularly including hostility toward money can be one hell of a social cop-out. But then perhaps i'm just an old cynic!Galina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-771035834307703262009-02-18T22:46:00.000-05:002009-02-18T22:46:00.000-05:00Hi, Lupa and Micalela, You raise many good points ...Hi, Lupa and Micalela, <BR/>You raise many good points and I want to take the time to respond to them here. <BR/><BR/>I don’t think that good presentation ought to depend on the presence or not of non-Pagans. That’s certainly not why I choose to dress fairly professionally on a regular basis. I just question why the dominant aesthetic within Paganism and Wicca is one that sends the message that it does. <BR/><BR/>I completely agree with you, Lupa, (and you said this better than I did) that far too many Pagans and Wiccans use "virtue" as an excuse for financial ignorance. I think that there are a number of social factors both internal and external to Paganism that influences that.<BR/><BR/> In fact i would go so far as to posit that financial literacy is the bete noire of the 20th and 21st centuries, just the same way that sex was in the 1950s. I mean would you sit down with your girlfriends and comfortably discuss your financial debt? most people couldn't. I've been fortunate in that i was taught the principles of financial literacy by a very determined Swiss woman and one of the things that I found most helpful, was open discussion of the issues, problems, successes and failures. I mean, in this country, most youth are not taught anything about this in school, nor are they necessarily getting it at home. They're bombarded with consumerism run rampant. When I worked on Wall Street, a co-worker ran a program that would go into urban schools and teach the principles of financial literacy. What horrified me was when she said in passing that at least 80% of the teen agers that she deals with (high schoolers) thought ATM meant 'all the money.' There was no concept of the connection between one's bank account and one's paycheck. This is only one example of many that i could name. So...i'm none too sanguine about "mainstream" approaches to finance and professionalism. We can all see where that's gotten us. <BR/><BR/>I hadn't actually given much thought to the interstices between appearance and attitude toward money until I began writing this particlar column. A friend pointed out to me that people pay good (and often excessive) money to look like what i initially termed 'downwardly mobile neo-hippies' (and i say this with the understanding that original hippie fashions were a revolt against the rigid, restrictive, and strongly gendered fashions of the 1950s. We really owe the hippie movement an incredible debt when it comes to clothing comfort! Without them, we'd likely all still be wearing girdles). That being said, i don't think that mainstream values toward money are all that healthy either. If they were, we'd not have been living on a credit based economy and we wouldn't be in the current financial crisis that we're in as a nation. So I"m certainly not calling for a blanket embrace of mainstream values. <BR/><BR/>What i am calling for, is an examination of how our religions as a community approach the process of recreating ancient beliefs in a modern world with radically different ethical structures. How are we moving our religions into the future? If someone wants to dress in tie-dye and live simply: that's certainly their perogative. What i am against, is someone feeling that they have to do that in order to be a "real" Pagan. Why is the concept of wealth and professional status so ignored and undervalued in our communities? (I mean, take the concept of Pagan Standard Time. It's pure BS. Be on time. period. otherwise you're wasting my time. it's common courtesy and anyone who's worked in a professional environment hopefully knows that. Yet something this fundamental escapes the communities--but that is a rant for another day!). <BR/><BR/>And while i think in theory, it would be nice to say yes, everyone should have the right to dress the way they want; in reality it doesn't work that way. I prefer to wear sweat pants and tank tops and no make up. I've learned however, that if i want to advance professionally and be taken seriously from everyone from my bosses, to my academic advisor, to my financial advisor i need to utilize garb, make up, posture, language, and courtesies rather like war paint. They allow me to project the image that will be most beneficial to the circumstance at hand. It's a matter of knowing what is appropriate when. I think that there's this dogged resistance to that lesson in the community at large. I'm a pragmatist: i'm about getting things done effectively. I may personally hate the fact that i'm judged on my appearance but knowing that this is so gives me a certain amount of control and power in my interactions. There's another bete noire in the community: power...maybe something I'll write about in a future article. Anyway, I'm rambling now and I can only ask your indulgence for this. I'm glad you posted. I think this dialogue can be very beneficial all around. <BR/><BR/>btw, Micalela, i don't find this same attitude in the Heathen community. There's a different dynamic going on there that in its own way is equally troubling. <BR/>blessings, <BR/>GalinaGalina Krasskovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06926374525306007900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-62408828125782400462009-02-18T22:21:00.000-05:002009-02-18T22:21:00.000-05:00I lived in a large midwestern city with a large an...I lived in a large midwestern city with a large and active pagan community. At the time I was active in this community there was not only that social fear about money but somehow to be pagan meant to be poor. <BR/><BR/>Pagans with financial security and/or money were looked down at. Almost like they weren't living down in the dirt with Momma earth then they were not true pagans. I always found this attitude strange and off putting. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you on clothing. While there is a time and place to let your hair down. There's is also a time and place to put your best foot forward. The attitude was just like the financial attitude if you were dressed in flowing Ren Faire dress or black attire somehow you were not one of "us". <BR/><BR/>I did not find these trends in the Asatru community. And maybe that's the difference. It is certainly one of those things that sets the Norse aside. At least in my opinion.Micalelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812234867150049001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8949173349258617391.post-58554840090499057242009-02-18T21:41:00.000-05:002009-02-18T21:41:00.000-05:00I think there are a couple of issues addressed her...I think there are a couple of issues addressed here:<BR/><BR/>--What we wear to festivals, and the nature of festivals. Are pagan festivals really "professional" in a mainstream sense of the word? I wouldn't necessarily agree. While I went to PCon with the intent of doing some networking on behalf of my publisher and my own business, I also went to have a weekend off. Therefore, there's a mix between business and carnival. However, there's no clear delineation between one and the other--it's not as though from 8 to 5 I'm networking, and then afterwards I get to party. I can be en route to a workshop and have a friend I haven't seen in years come up to me, and I can be in the Green Fairy room that evening and talk to a potential author about their manuscript. I really don't want to wear professional clothing the entire time I'm there, and additionally, *it is understood by those in attendance at this convention that this is primarily a come-as-you-are event*.<BR/><BR/>PCon isn't Pagan Pride Day; while you are of course going to get non-pagan folks who happen to be staying at the hotel that weekend, it's not specifically an event meant for greater community outreach in the same way PPD is. While it's arguable that we should present ourselves because of the presence of nonpagans, it's also worth considering that this is often vacation time for many folks. <BR/><BR/>--The attitude towards money: I have no argument with you here. I completely, totally, and fully agree with you that there is too much adherence to the "poor pagan" stereotype, and the backlash against perceived religion-for-money models supposedly espoused by mainstream religions. Too many pagans use "virtue" as an excuse for being financially ignorant and phobic.<BR/><BR/>(My husband actually wrote more on this than I did a while back, the second essay at http://www.twpt.com/magick.htm . It's also what motivated him to put together a "Manifesting Prosperity" anthology, to go beyond the money spell and into attitudes about money in paganism and occultism.)<BR/><BR/>But where do the two intertwine? There's the assumption that one's appearance automatically correlates to one's attitude towards money. Much of this is due to mainstream assumptions (though I bet the average person has no idea how much well-made Faire garb actually costs...). How much, though, do we need to conform to mainstream values in order to be deemed acceptable?<BR/><BR/>I would argue that it is not just my responsibility to conform to the expectations of mainstream society where it may be appropriate (and I would consider a festival to be less worrisome than, say, an academic convention), but for mainstream society to also break out of stereotypical assumptions based on appearance. The former, of course, is far more under my control than the latter. OTOH, because of my training in cultural competency in my Master's counseling program, I'm also more inclined to favor honoring peoples' expressions of their social locations, including with regards to spirituality, rather than pressuring towards assimilation.<BR/><BR/>While I agree we need to learn as a general group that there's no shame in being financially secure (and that we aren't sellouts), there are other factors as well, both for us and for "them", as it were, including how to deal with assumptions based on appearance, and when to allow these societal assumptions to affect personal decisions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com